A profile of profile proposals, and Daniela Petruzalek talks about devrel, podcasts, and building agents with Go
I hope I said that right. I probably didn't.
Shay Nehmad:Probably not.
Jonathan Hall:Florent, I'm
Shay Nehmad:pretty confident. That's probably not.
Jonathan Hall:Say Florent.
Shay Nehmad:This is Cup of Go for 10/16/2026. Keep up to date with the important happenings in the Go community in about twenty minutes per week. I'm Shay Nehmad.
Jonathan Hall:And I'm Jonathan Hall.
Shay Nehmad:What is up with you?
Jonathan Hall:Hey, I'm happy to be here. I've had a long three weeks as my kids have been on fall break. They go back to school on Monday. We have a birthday party for my nearly four year old daughter
Shay Nehmad:tomorrow. Good Nice, family nice. Now ask me. Now ask me.
Jonathan Hall:Yeah, Shay. How are you doing?
Shay Nehmad:Oh my god. Was at Rush concert. Rush had a concert in San Jose and I
Jonathan Hall:went there. Okay.
Shay Nehmad:And I was, like, so excited for it for so long and it actually happened. Oh my god. Rush are fucking awesome. Geddy Lee. Oh my god.
Shay Nehmad:Anyway, I don't know how many of our listeners are also Rush listeners, but if you haven't listened to Rush before, you should go listen to Rush. Just stop the episode. You'll probably be smarter generally because their music is like kind of complex. It has, you know, complex time signatures and keys and stuff. You'll probably be smarter listening to Rush than listening to us, Blaberrin.
Shay Nehmad:And they're so good, man. Oh my God. And they're like 80. I am very hyped. It was just a few hours ago.
Shay Nehmad:So it's early morning here. So I'm still... My ears are even ringing still a little bit. But we have Go to talk about. People are thirsty for it
Jonathan Hall:to go. Do, and we have an interview coming up, so we actually kinda have to rush through this episode anyway to get to that interview on
Shay Nehmad:Right. Let's let's fly by night. That's another Rush song. Never mind. Wait.
Shay Nehmad:Do you even like Rush? I'm, like, so hyped
Jonathan Hall:I know a few other songs. Isn't Tom Sawyer their song?
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. Yeah. Me and Tom Sawyer, deep deep rad. They've all saw you deep deep rad. Shout out to Geddy Lee and the guitarist guy, I don't remember his name, and their new drummer.
Shay Nehmad:They have, you know, Neil Perdide, so they have this like German drummer who started on YouTube. Anyway, this is not a rush show, sorry. I was just so excited about it. Let's talk about Go Proposals,
Jonathan Hall:Let's do
Shay Nehmad:it. What is ACME when you hear like ACME? What do you... What pops to mind?
Jonathan Hall:I I think of Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner and the and the brand of dynamite they use for everything. Exactly.
Shay Nehmad:That's like a a fake company name from the cartoons. Right?
Jonathan Hall:Yeah. Yeah.
Shay Nehmad:Where he goes like, meep meep. And I was sure that this proposal was about some, like, testing data in the crypto library because it's ex crypto Acme. So I didn't look at it for a long time because like, ah, probably some, you know, something related to testing data, doesn't matter. Then I opened it and turns out that, no, the very smart people at the IETF have a thing they called Automated Certificate Management Environment, or ACMI for short.
Jonathan Hall:Right, right.
Shay Nehmad:So it's a thing. It's actually kind of interesting, but the context is there's a proposal, support for ACMI profiles. So there's a feature in ACMI called profiles. We need to understand what is ACMI and then we can understand what is ACMI profiles. The Go angle is just for crypto, the X crypto library to support that.
Shay Nehmad:So there isn't any Go implementation specific thing, you just have to understand the network thing. It's like a few non intrusive and backward compatible changes, just a bunch of additions. To get into it, what is automated certificate management environment? When you hear certificate, what do you think?
Jonathan Hall:Probably TLS certificates for a website or email server, something like that, right?
Shay Nehmad:Yeah, so this is all about how a server may offer a few profiles of certificates to the client. This is a feature that Let's Encrypt has. Let's Encrypt is a free thing that lets you, well, probably have a paid tier, but I used it to get free TLS certificates for my web servers and it's really good and automated. Not sponsored, I just use it. And it's sort of the case where I think they let it and they already implemented it and now it's just the standards playing catch up because this is already implemented in Let's Encrypt.
Shay Nehmad:But this is a protocol that allows, you know, the cert... Like ACME allows the clients and the servers to, like, exchange information about the certificates a bit more efficiently, but there's a lot of features here, right? There's a lot of extensions and fields and whatever that you can exchange. This feature is about servers being able to give you profiles, which are combinations of all the things you're willing to provide, and then the client can create a new order and just say, oh, I want the standard profile, just give me the standard profile for this certificate. Instead of exchanging a lot of information that's kind of implementation detail, you just get a short name for a combination of like fields and extensions that the server offers.
Shay Nehmad:Turns out that there has been a lot of issues, compliance incidents and whatever, because people copied the extension name, for example, directly, and then it caused a security incident. But if you provide a set list of profiles as a server, and then you only accept one of those values in return, there's no risk of like untrusted input making it to your system, right? So there's a whole proposal here and actually, if you just read it, sort of makes sense, right? It's like, oh, profile, profile number one, profile number two, you can pick one of them, which makes a lot of sense. And the proposal is about implementing it in Go.
Shay Nehmad:Now, what happened was that this proposal was on our backlog for a while. So by the time we got to this episode, it wasn't really implemented. So you can go take a look at the change list if you want. In Garrett, this was implemented by Daniel McCarney. But it just like parse profiles and add a new thing called order options, so you can specify whatever profile you want.
Shay Nehmad:Very cool. Yeah. I didn't know about this feature at all, and also it's funny that it's Acme, that's just what caught my eye. But if you look at the proposal itself, it's funny to see how some companies become the standard, because it's all like, oh, well, let's encrypt it that way, so let's do it that way sort of situation. Yeah, and this has already merged.
Shay Nehmad:I think it will be part of 128, because it's unreleased yet. Cool,
Jonathan Hall:we'll look forward to that in February.
Shay Nehmad:Oh, right. That's not that far off. No. Time flies, man. It's not.
Shay Nehmad:Yep. What's the proposal you you have for us?
Jonathan Hall:So I want to talk about something that sounds like it might be related, but it's really not. And that is crypto TLS profiles.
Shay Nehmad:Woah, what? I just talked about it. You feel all right?
Jonathan Hall:So the idea here is this is a new proposal. It has not been accepted yet. How often do you have to configure TLS when you're writing a Go program? Building a server that talks TLS, Honestly, you have
Shay Nehmad:to I've go never configured it myself. I always use like cloud providers and just let them do it for me and pick whatever tool Orca or Wiz or whatever is scanning my environment to tell me if I have my settings correct. Because who... Like, why would I configure it? I pay the cloud providers for it.
Jonathan Hall:Yeah. If you're behind a reverse proxy or a firewall or something that handles that for you, you don't have to. But if you're exposing your Go programs over TLS directly, so you have to configure, of course, your certificates, which protocol versions you allow, different things like this. And it can get kind of tricky to especially if you want to be secure because most of us aren't keeping up to date with which versions are secure and what options are secure and so on and so forth. So the proposal is to add profiles so you can just sort of pick a profile that seems reasonable to you.
Jonathan Hall:And the four initial profiles they've suggested are default, which I presume is what we have today. If you don't do any special configuration, a compatibility profile, which is a little bit more lax than maybe what you normally would want. But if you need to interrupt with older services that are, you know, need to be backward compatible, A modern one...
Shay Nehmad:So you have default, you have minimal. What do you give up when you go to to this second one, the minimal one? Or sorry, not minimal, compatible, you called it?
Jonathan Hall:Yeah, compatible. So you have default. Compatible is more permissive and less secure, but for compatibility purposes. Then modern, which is more secure and like probably what you should use unless you have a reason not to. And then the last one is FIPS 140.
Jonathan Hall:So So if you're building a FIPS compliant app, you could just flag that on and maintain your FIPS compatibility.
Shay Nehmad:Wait. What did you say? FIPS? FIPS. I don't know about that.
Shay Nehmad:Wait. I do. We had a whole episode about it. Yeah. We talked about FIPS with Alex Shield in the past.
Jonathan Hall:Talk to us like we're five. Cool.
Alex Scheel:So I guess to start, FIPS is a US Government standard put together by NIST. NIST is National Institute of Standards and Technology here in The US. Put together, I guess, two main volumes of publication around cryptography.
Shay Nehmad:So why wouldn't I always take the, you know, the hardest, like the most restrictive profile, like modern, for example?
Jonathan Hall:Yeah, I think normally you would unless you need to interact with other services that are not modern. They're stuck on an old version of TLS or something like that. So you need to be more permissive. And you still, of course, have the option to configure it completely by hand if you have a special need to do that. But the idea here is to make it easier to be secure by default rather than forcing everybody to get a master's degree in TLS certificates.
Shay Nehmad:If I like look at the profiles and I do wanna look under the hood and see what they do, it sounds from what you've described it like, well, if you want compatibility, go for profile compatibility. If you want, you should use modern because it's like more secure. But I would love to know what the actual config is, like if I wanna look into what the config is, because what I assume is almost by definition of the word, modern is something that will change over time. Right? Or am I misunderstanding what it does?
Shay Nehmad:Like as time goes on, we'll have new curve, elliptical curve algorithms or whatever.
Jonathan Hall:I expect that to be true. The initial proposal describes the default as something that would change over time. It doesn't specifically say that about modern, but I think I had the exact same thought that that seems like as old protocols get deprecated, that modern should evolve with that. But there's been a lot of discussion on this issue about this and many other aspects of it. So it's still being decided what this should look like and
Shay Nehmad:if Oh, it's actually it's not going accepted?
Jonathan Hall:What's It's a latest new proposal. It's new in backlog.
Shay Nehmad:Well, if any of our listeners do configure, you know, you configure TLS services or whatever, you should get into that. Okay, so I have a blog post that is related to Go, but it's mostly for fun. I know that you love Microsoft products.
Jonathan Hall:Of course. They're the best.
Shay Nehmad:As listeners of the show know, what would you say is your most favorite, meaning the ones... The one you like to hate the most Microsoft product? Obviously, we're we're we're taking a bit of fun... Life fun at Microsoft here. Guys, it's a huge corporation.
Shay Nehmad:It's easy to make fun of them. Take it easy.
Jonathan Hall:I don't know. Probably Windows.
Shay Nehmad:My favorite to hate one is Teams. I'm in B2B and
Jonathan Hall:a Teams lot of is my terrible.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. So apparently, there's a there's a little green status thing on Teams that lets you know if the person is, like, active. And Jan Camera, I hope I'm saying that right, wrote a blog post that I really like about making your... Writing a Go... Piece of Go software that makes your team's status stay green so people think you're working, even if you're not on the machine.
Shay Nehmad:The justification is, oh, if you have two machines at work, one for development and one for communications. Obviously, the entire blog post is drift with cynicism and sarcasm about why are people even looking at whether you're active or not? And I obviously agree, but what I like is the very small program. You can actually just read it, it's 100 lines on how to make your cursor move randomly just a little bit using the Windows API in Go. It's like a 100 lines, very easy, how to compile it.
Shay Nehmad:It moves your mouse around a little bit, and then it double presses scroll lock as like a thing that probably doesn't do anything. But that's good enough to convince teams that you're working and get your boss off your bag. Awesome. And there's compilation instructions, etcetera. I don't know.
Shay Nehmad:I found that like a good blog post. Yeah. I don't know if you're into Windows internals. When's the last time you looked at the Win32 API?
Jonathan Hall:All we need now is profiles for this tool, so it'll fit the rest of the theme of the show.
Shay Nehmad:Oh, it changes your team's profile status or whatever. There we go. Or it helps people profile you as a hard worker.
Jonathan Hall:There we go.
Shay Nehmad:There we go. We don't have ad breaks, but let's do a short ad break.
Jonathan Hall:Okay, let's do it. Thank you for listening to the show. You can always support the show by leaving a review wherever you listen to your podcast, by sharing with a friend or colleague. You can support us financially on Patreon. We have three levels now, four if you count non paying.
Jonathan Hall:So you can always... If you're already a Patreon, you can potentially upgrade your Patreon level if you want to. You You can also downgrade it if you feel like you've already given us enough of your hard earned money. Either way works. We appreciate the support financially is great just to help cover the cost, but just feedback is probably the most important support we could get.
Jonathan Hall:So we have a great interview coming up about podcasting, and we're talking some about some of this, you know, why we podcast and all that. So that'll be our real ad break is the actual interview, I think.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. Other than that, I wanna be talking about, I don't know, financial support or finance in general. I don't mention this on the show often, but I work at a startup. We're called Ops and Security, and we just raised, and that's very exciting. Oh.
Jonathan Hall:Cool. Nice.
Shay Nehmad:So if you're looking for work in cybersecurity and you think you might wanna work with me, talk to me. Raised, know, raised, Opsen has raised $21,000,000 led by Syn Ventures and Raise Capital. Very cool. And we do AI security stuff. Risk location location or for the agentic era.
Jonathan Hall:All on location or remote or hybrid or how do you how does your company handle that?
Shay Nehmad:I think we're mostly looking for US based developers, not specifically Bay Area, but ideally Bay Area.
Jonathan Hall:Got it.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. We have people all over. And just to clarify, because this is a go show, we don't actually do any go. So I think it's worth clarifying. That's a fair Quick lightning round.
Jonathan Hall:Yes.
Shay Nehmad:Lightning round.
Jonathan Hall:First up from a listener of the show, a tool called Solid Ping.
Shay Nehmad:Solid Ping.
Jonathan Hall:Solid Ping is a distributed self hostable uptime monitoring, 43 check types, multi region workers, private agents, status pages, incident and on call escalation in a single Go binary.
Shay Nehmad:That sounds cool. Wait. A single Go binary and it also stores stuff? Where does it store it? Oh, SQL.
Shay Nehmad:Cool. Cool.
Jonathan Hall:It could... Yeah. Probably a SQLite, I would imagine, or... No. It supports Postgres.
Jonathan Hall:It supports Postgres. This is from listener Florent I hope I said that right. I probably didn't.
Shay Nehmad:Probably not. Florent, I'm pretty confident. Be honest. Probably not.
Jonathan Hall:Say Florent. Thank you for for sharing this with us. Happy to include it in Lightning Round.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. This is cool. I started. I use online or not, and I've used it for years. And these sorts of services are just really good.
Shay Nehmad:I wanted to mention a new show I've seen online. I've noticed it with, Miriah Peterson and... Wait. Who is this here? I know her.
Shay Nehmad:Jonathan? Who's that? Yeah. So there's a new podcast called Slop Overflow. You can find it on YouTube, I guess, and other places, maybe.
Jonathan Hall:Find it on all the all the podcast y places. It's basically Cup A Go, but for, like, free open source AI stuff.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. So link in the show notes. I've listened to half of the first episode, but then I have to come record this. Come record the podcast. All right.
Shay Nehmad:So this is our lighting round coming up. Have a interview with Daniela about developer relations and Golang and agents and podcasts.
Jonathan Hall:Podcasts, yep.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah, very meta. On topic, on Yeah, stick around.
Jonathan Hall:All right.
Shay Nehmad:All right, Jonathan, I've done some competitive analysis, I've done some market research.
Jonathan Hall:Uh-huh.
Shay Nehmad:And I have brought before the court, someone who's trying to start a new Go podcast. No. Alright. What do you have to say for yourself?
Daniela Petruzalek:In my defense, I'm innocent. That's the only thing I have to say. I don't know how to defend myself on this. Like, yes, I was... I'm actually...
Daniela Petruzalek:Spy here trying to figure out how to do the things and copy
Shay Nehmad:everything I spy with my little eye. A go podcast. Can't play that I can't play that game anymore. There's so much driving in America. I have I have spied every single identifiable object in three d space.
Daniela Petruzalek:And and just to be on theme, I'm using a Spy Family t shirt, so I'm literally a spy now.
Jonathan Hall:Yeah.
Daniela Petruzalek:Only the anime fans will understand this.
Shay Nehmad:Well, Tanna, welcome to the show. How about you introduce yourself to our lovely audience?
Daniela Petruzalek:Okay. Hello, everyone. My name is Daniela Petruzalek. I'm a developer relations engineer at Google, currently focused on Google Cloud, Go in the wonderful world of AI stuff. A
Shay Nehmad:little bit of backstory, the way we... You got on the show is I saw your post on LinkedIn about thinking about starting a Go podcast. I was like, should come on Copacult to see how it's done, check it out with the pros.
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, learn from the experts, exactly. Because, know, originally, we used to have Go Time and I think it
Shay Nehmad:was a great podcast, Matt Ryan and folks like them did
Daniela Petruzalek:an amazing job. And after they retired, thought, oh, it kind of left a gap in community. And I'm sorry, really sorry, didn't know about Cup of Go when I made that post. So I think it's one of those things that is, oh, I'm happy that I did the post because now I know you guys and I've been listening. It's amazing.
Daniela Petruzalek:But the idea was, okay, can we have this sort of show that we... I know, I'm tentatively called Go Live Fridays, the intention was to release every episode on Friday or a couple of Fridays and have a conversation with someone, a key figure in our community, and talk just like friends in a bar or having a coffee, nothing super heavily produced because I think those things are the ones that appeal the most. I really like as you were listening to your friends talking about something, that was kind of the gist of it. And I made the post to see if there was a demand for that actually and actually apparently there is.
Jonathan Hall:I think it's a great idea and it's distinct from what we do. So I don't think there's a huge amount of overlap. We do have interviews like this one, but that's not the primary focus of our podcast. We try to talk about what's new and go every week. So yeah, I think it's a great idea.
Jonathan Hall:If you choose to do it, I think it's a great idea. You won't get any
Shay Nehmad:copyright infringement lawsuits banging on your door, sweaty guys.
Daniela Petruzalek:So we are live... We are recording this now that you're promising not to sue me.
Shay Nehmad:That's
Daniela Petruzalek:right. Let's just put this on
Shay Nehmad:the record. Wait. About that. To be fair, Jonathan is more of the podcast expert between us. Right?
Shay Nehmad:Like, I only did a cup ago, and I did radio in Jerusalem when I was, like, 16 for a school project.
Daniela Petruzalek:I have been listening to you guys, and you do have that radio voice. Like, it's amazing. It's like the... I don't know exactly the word, but it's like... Yeah.
Daniela Petruzalek:No. You're made for this. Like, this is amazing. It's a
Shay Nehmad:new The microphone... I can recommend the microphone. Not sponsored, but I've had this piece of equipment literally since I was 15. It's the Rode NT1. Rode, it's a it's like a sort of a Nordic O, like it Man, slashes to they make great hardware.
Shay Nehmad:I don't know what mic you're using, but this this is really good.
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah. This is an Audio Technica. Hopefully, the sound will look good. Like, what
Shay Nehmad:It it sounds it sounds okay. Jonathan's, like,
Jonathan Hall:best for the looking or whatever that is. See, you also have a road.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. But, anyway, Jonathan is the... Like, more of the podcast expert. That's how I I felt comfortable starting because you had podcasts before.
Jonathan Hall:I've been doing podcasts for five or six years. Yeah.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. How do you think about, like, approaching a new show?
Jonathan Hall:So I'll I'll tell you what I think is important for for me, which is not to say that it should be important for anybody else, but it needs to be something I enjoy doing, and it needs to be low effort, or I'm just gonna get I'm gonna start to get burned out, which is why I have Filippo doing it. Thanks, Filippo, for editing this. Thanks, Filippo. I know how to edit a podcast, but after doing it for a few months, like, I I I don't wanna edit another podcast.
Daniela Petruzalek:You you know, you just said the magical words that for me needs to be, like, low effort. And that's why I say conversation between friends that we kind of happen to be recording. This is what I aim with this, low production environment because one of the things is I don't want it to sound like overproduced because this is not a marketing thing, we're just sharing learnings. And the original idea I had, because I had this one to once with Marc Daugherty, which is Gold DevRel, and a few other people like Cameron, and some of those conversations, of course, discuss all sorts of things, but some of those I keep thinking, oh, would make a nice show because we're talking about our struggles, building stuff, dealing with the new world and stuff, and a lot of people will relate to that, unless I thought.
Jonathan Hall:Yeah. I'll also admit that one of the reasons I chose... I wanted to do a GOAT podcast for a while just because I was interested, but one of the reasons I chose the news format is because it doesn't require much effort. I just had to read the news. I don't have to, like, write a script or, like, dive deep into some topic so I can go talk about here's how, I don't know, the GoScheduler works or something like that.
Jonathan Hall:I can just read through five or six different things, highlights from a news article, and it's fairly low effort. So that I mean, I've shared the magic sauce now. Everybody else can go duplicate with cup of go. That was the whole point. It was something fun, low effort that I could keep doing on a week by week basis without feeling burned out.
Daniela Petruzalek:And I think if you go deep into certain concepts, it kind of doesn't really fit the podcast format. Like, oh, let's talk about the scheduler and internal implementation of it. I don't think it does make a lot of sense. But if we're talking about news and high level and experiences, I think it's a great fit.
Jonathan Hall:Yeah. So I enjoy doing it. Some people seem to enjoy listening to it. We don't have a huge audience, but I think that's okay. We're not there for numbers, we're there because it's fun and enjoyable and something we can do.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah, after a while, some people in the audience, at least for me, became like regular members or even people I managed to meet in real life. It did become a bit more than just a learning, like a structured learning experience for me. But that took time, like in the beginning it was just like, oh, I'll learn from Jonathan and Miki podcast and also make sure I'm staying sharp with Go. But after a while, sort of became its own thing. It had a website, it has a logo, like people will come up to me like, oh, you're the cup of Go guy.
Shay Nehmad:I'm like,
Daniela Petruzalek:oh yeah.
Shay Nehmad:Mentioned very briefly Devril, another Devril, and I'm interested, what is, you know that scene from Office Space, like what would you say you do? Like what's your job? You're an engineer, you're developers relations, you're working of course on Google Cloud, which is relevant and adjacent to Go, so I think it would be interesting, but like first and foremost, what does that mean? Are you like a salesperson? Are you trying to sell Google?
Shay Nehmad:Like who hasn't heard of Google? I'm just trying to get a grasp of what is your job. I'm sure a lot of our audience doesn't know what DevRel actually does either, so...
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, that's a very good question. I think if you ask 10 developer relations people you're going to get 11 answers to that question, But I would say the way I explain this to my family is I'm a professional influencer in that sort of thing. Because I talk and teach about Google technology, I have two main functions, one is broadcasting information, so teaching and spreading the word, so I travel to conferences, I write articles, I'm experimenting with videos now and the podcast could be a way to do this work as well. Talking about Google technology because everyone knows Google but what about building stuff with the Google tools? It's much more niche than that and not just brand awareness.
Daniela Petruzalek:And my audience is developers, so that's why it's developer relations, I'm not talking to anyone. And to be a good developer relations, you need to be an engineer in the first place. At least inside Google we're not a function of marketing, we're a function of engineering. This is very important. Role that I have is I'm making from Google to the community and broadcasting stuff but I need to do the reverse as well.
Daniela Petruzalek:I need to speak with developers and get information flowing back to Google to gather product feedback and say what's working, what's not. And we have this concept of friction logging, for example, where say, Oh, yeah, this product is great but this thing is not working very well, or I miss this feature, or If you did this it would be better. So gathering this kind of feedback for the product teams is also an important function of my job. So it's like a two way road of telling people what Google is doing. Myspace nowadays is mostly AI agents and coding with AI, so into gravity, but also getting this feedback from the community.
Jonathan Hall:I wanted to ask a little bit about that. So you said you're working with Google Cloud. How do you interact with developers outside of Google who are building against Google Cloud? What is your interface to them? Is it email?
Jonathan Hall:You talked about making content, so that's how they consume some of what you do. But how do you hear back from them?
Daniela Petruzalek:So I think the biggest chunk of it is basically going to in person conferences. Those are still super important to us. And especially like if you go I just went to DevOx, for example, in Belgium, and we had our small booths there, we were talking to people and people would come to us and say hey, I'm using this product in this way, what can I do better? Or I'm trying to do this, how do I do it? Or I'm trying to do this and it didn't work, can you make it better?
Daniela Petruzalek:So these are the kind of conversations I have at the booth. At the same time I do these talks and usually people come after the talk with questions and say, oh, I saw you did this and how can I apply this to my day to day? So I think the in person events is a huge part of it. But as I said, I have this influencer, under quotes, part of my job where I'm slowly building my social presence and people reach out on LinkedIn, on Twitter, also asking questions. Yeah, so this is the kind of Cool, go
Shay Nehmad:ahead, And after a, like, successful event, you know what I mean, what would be the, oh, I came back and here are all the people that I scanned their badge for emails and they're gonna buy Google Cloud now or is it more of a slow, oh, they work for this company and then suddenly three months later, you know, they open up more Google Cloud accounts and they're starting to move workloads? Like how do you see the impact of a successful, let's say you go to a conference and you have a really, really great talk about the new horizontally scaled Postgres offering from Google Cloud or whatever?
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, so it's an important difference. Like I said, we're not marketing and we're not sales, which means I don't have a sales quota. And it's really hard for me to link to say, Oh, because Daniella made this agentic code presentation at DevOps, our team decided to invest $1,000,000 in Google Cloud. I cannot make this correlation. So it's impossible.
Daniela Petruzalek:So it's kind of like we're in this weird situation where I rely a lot on my credibility and I can influence people but I cannot make decisions and I cannot claim that this customer bought Google Cloud because it was something that I said. Essentially what we're aiming is to show that the product is good and I rely a lot on my personal credibility, there's a lot of personal branding involved because I need to speak about something that I believe works. You cannot reach the developers the other way. You cannot reach the developers with marketing speech and say, Oh, look how awesome is this, but where does this doesn't work? So sometimes it might look like I'm speaking bad about the product online but I'm saying, Oh, this is what worked, this is what didn't work because I need to tell what's real.
Daniela Petruzalek:And that way I get credibility and that way I can say this thing I really believe, this is what you can do or should do with this product. So it's a common struggle in developer relational functions to measure us and what is the measure of success, so that's why I feel like I don't have a perfect answer for you. We do have our own metrics of how do we reach out to people and things, but it's a bit fuzzy. It's hard.
Jonathan Hall:How do you define success personally? What makes you feel good
Shay Nehmad:if there's no hard metric? I would
Daniela Petruzalek:say for me personally, success is when I engage with people and I have one real person in front of me saying, oh, I did this, it worked, thank you, this is nice or I have these positive interactions. But of course, out of thousands of people, one or two are going to come up and say something to you. It's not a strong metric but when I see I produce positive impact on someone this is a good feedback. As a proxy for that I'm basically checking how is my social reception, how are people commenting on my videos, how people are reacting to my posts. So this becomes a proxy and the way I know I'm getting better is basically comparing to myself.
Daniela Petruzalek:It's worthless for me to compare with even my colleague because they might have a different audience. I speak a lot for Go developers, for example. I cannot compare myself to someone that speaks to Java developers.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah, they have to use much longer words and complicated sentences.
Jonathan Hall:They speak much more abstractly.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And do you have any interesting event, you know, I don't wanna say events or like talks or something coming up or maybe recently posted about Go that our audience might find interesting if they wanna start to get influenced by you. This is kind of a weird way to put it, I guess, but...
Daniela Petruzalek:It's a weird way to put it, but it's also true, I guess. But I do a blog... I have a blog. It's dennycat.dev. Hopefully, you have some place you can put a link later.
Shay Nehmad:Yeah. Link is in the show notes.
Daniela Petruzalek:Amazing. And I started writing a series called Gemini for Go developers where I'm touching most of the... Because when I talk about Gemini people think about how is the frontier model, but Gemini is much more than that. It's like a family of models. It can do all sorts of things.
Daniela Petruzalek:You have the frontier model for general purpose but also image generation, music generation, text to speech, speech to text. You have all sorts of these different capabilities, and I talk about how to incorporate that in your Go applications, how to configure coding agents for Go code generation as well, so how can you improve quality of your response, like producing Go code from an agent. So these sorts of things. And then my last couple of chapters were on building agents with Go. I'm trying to cover all this intersection of Gemini and AI in general, agentic coding and building agents with Go.
Daniela Petruzalek:So this is kind of a sweet spot.
Jonathan Hall:So you've mentioned that you do speaking as part of your job, and I understand that you recently spoke at Go for Con LATAM, is that right?
Daniela Petruzalek:Yes, yes, yes, that's correct.
Jonathan Hall:What speaking were about there? Was that the Gemini stuff or other topics?
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, so I did two things actually, I did one of the conference workshops based on my series like Gemini for Go developers, teaching about Gemini models, APIs, coding with Gemini. One of the fun parts of this workshop is I do a mini game jam where people take everything they learn and they start building games in Go. Had actually 100 people in the workshop and everyone made at least one game and at the end we had a queue where we could not present all the games they produced because we didn't have enough time, basically. But it was super amazing to see what people create. Also I did a keynote about Build Asians, but the fun part for me was always building games.
Daniela Petruzalek:Cool.
Shay Nehmad:It's a... I have a game jam every year that I always look at and I send a message to my little brother and I'm like, this year, this year we'll find the time to do it. This year, it's the GMTK Game Jam. Man, I watch it on YouTube and I'm like, wow, I really wanna try it. I really, really wanna try it.
Shay Nehmad:Like put time aside on the schedule and then of course life gets in the way and we don't do it. Then I see like the results up on YouTube like later and I'm like, well, maybe next year. And it's been that way for like ten years now.
Daniela Petruzalek:I'm actually not familiar with this one, GMTK. I need to have a look, but I'm the same. I want to participate in a game jam. But now actually, because of this workshop I also did it at Goth4Con UK, a smaller version of it, and I'm thinking about doing this as an online thing, doing a Gemini game jam, and it will be based on Go as well. Of course, nowadays language tends to be in implementation details, I always try to sprinkle as much Go as I can in my job.
Shay Nehmad:You could call it a game jam and I or something like that.
Daniela Petruzalek:Good one, but I'll I'll think about it. I think
Shay Nehmad:it might be... Probably needs approval of 15 different lawyers up in Google. Yeah. We changed the name. Cannot change the name.
Daniela Petruzalek:It might not fly, but...
Jonathan Hall:You'll also be speaking, I see, at Go Lab, which is coming up in just a couple weeks in Italy, right?
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go Lab is, you know, is one of those conferences that you get always the usual suspects they attend, it's a very good conference here in Europe. It should really be called buffer cone something because you always get such a great lineup. And I'm doing my talk, it's called State of Agenci Coding, where I basically revisit all the standards and developments we've seen in the past few months. I did this talk almost every month this year and every time it's different because things are moving so fast, But the idea is to talk like this time we'll be talking a little bit about skills, sidecars, plugins, and sub agents, and how to use them,
Shay Nehmad:like giving some real world
Daniela Petruzalek:examples. Yeah, it should be fun.
Shay Nehmad:Very cool. Yeah. This conference, by the way, I'm very proud to say that it's almost, I don't know, it seems like 30% Cup A Go alumni, right? We have Andy Williams, Bill Kennedy who hosted last week. Now you, Danielle, now you're alumni too, alumnus.
Shay Nehmad:Yay. Danielle Multi we had on the show, Kamil O'Kayun we had on the show. Like there's so many people here that we had on the show, Ron Evans we recently had with Tiny Go. I guess maybe it's a good, you know, like headhunting list, we need to get the rest of the people here who weren't on the show yet. Oh, definitely should.
Shay Nehmad:You have a spy shirt, right?
Daniela Petruzalek:Yes.
Shay Nehmad:Okay. So you're a double agent now. We're talking about agent recording. You're a double agent. You need to go to Golub and tell all these people that they need to come on Capa Go.
Daniela Petruzalek:I will spread the word of CopaGo. Now, yeah, I totally am a double agent. And actually, last year it was in Florence and we had almost like a Brazilian invasion there because we also have a very... I'm originally from Brazil and we have a lot of Brazilians in the Go community as well that tend to do this conference circuit. I'm just watching LinkedIn, Alex Rios doing GopherCon Africa now.
Daniela Petruzalek:So he's one of the guys you probably
Shay Nehmad:should invite to the show, like a
Daniela Petruzalek:great guy, has been doing the tour of all the Gopher Cones in the world.
Shay Nehmad:Stumper question time.
Jonathan Hall:Yeah, whenever we have people on the show to interview, we like to end with a standard question. And this year we'll have to change it soon. The year's almost over. But this year, the question has been, what is your favorite third party Go package or library or tool? Anything not from the Go tool chain or the Go standard library.
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, it's an easy one for me. It's Epi 10 or Epi Tenjin, and it's a game library, game development library by Hajime Hoshi, he's Japanese. And yeah, the whole thing I was talking about, this game jam is basically powered by AB ten. So I feel it's like a very atypical use of the goal to build games. But what I really like about this library is that actually it's commercial grade.
Daniela Petruzalek:They have commercial games published on it, and even on Nintendo Star, there's a company in Japan that uses it basically to build their games. Now Hajime is an ex Googler and he left to support this project and now he's working as a CTO in this company called Oden Catz. But yeah, I love the library. Building games, the whole reason why I became a software engineer in the first place is because I want to be a game developer, so I love playing with it.
Jonathan Hall:Awesome, great answer.
Shay Nehmad:Cool. I'll put a link to EVIT engine in the show notes.
Jonathan Hall:Well, before we sign off, why don't you tell everyone you already mentioned your blog, dannycat.dev, right? Yeah. How else can folks get in touch with you? It sounds like you don't mind people reaching out to you. Are you on the social medias, YouTube channel?
Jonathan Hall:What's the best way to get a hold of you?
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Like, I actually love connecting to people. That's the whole relations part of my job. And I've been mostly active on LinkedIn and Twitter. Sorry, I still call it Twitter or X.
Daniela Petruzalek:So LinkedIn and X are the main channels. So you can follow me there, like maybe we can give the links as well. Yep. I'm usually Danny Cat everywhere, but yeah.
Jonathan Hall:Awesome. Well, hey, Daniela, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure to meet a fellow gopher and potential podcaster. Love to listen to your show, if, you decide to go that route. So, thanks so much.
Daniela Petruzalek:Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me. This was a pleasure.
Shay Nehmad:Wonderful. Thanks so much.
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