🪖 Gab's Notes on this week's Go news and an interview with Matt Boyle of Ona and ByteSizeGo
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Shay Neymar:This
Gabriel Augendre:is CopaGo for September 19 2025. Keep up to date with the important happenings in the Go community in about fifteen minutes per week. I'm Gabriel Lojean.
Shay Neymar:And I'm Shay Nehmad Hello.
Gabriel Augendre:Hello.
Shay Neymar:John, you sound extra fancy today. Oh, no. Wait. Gabriel, how about you introduce yourself to the people?
Gabriel Augendre:Thank you for having me. I'm Gabriel. I'm a technical lead at OVH Cloud, and I work with Go day to day with Go Codebases. Nice. So
Shay Neymar:Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for covering for John, who's like in in South America today or some, having a drinking coconuts on the beach and wondering what's up with Go this week. So let us help him and tell him what's going on with Go this week. How about you start?
Shay Neymar:You mentioned the JSON blog. We mentioned it in the past and now you finally dove into it.
Gabriel Augendre:Yeah. The Go team published a blog post about the JSON v two that they have added to Go 1.25.
Shay Neymar:So it's not by default, right? Sounds like I I I use it by default if I have one twenty five.
Gabriel Augendre:That's correct. It's a v two package and it's not visible by default. You need to enable a Go Experiment flag to have it available in your code base.
Shay Neymar:So GoExperiment is something I do at runtime, at build time. Is it it's like an environment variable, right?
Gabriel Augendre:It's an environment variable. I believe you need to set it at build time.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. It seems like it used to be with the loop bar thing, so I assume it's the same. So what's the best place to learn what's up with this new V2 package?
Gabriel Augendre:Go. Dev, the blog from the the Go team, they just published an an article, like, ten days ago.
Shay Neymar:I will respectfully disagree. I think, as usual, the best blog post to learn about things in Go is actually Anton's Anton Givano's blog. Anton, we had him on the show, of course.
Gabriel Augendre:My name is Anton. I do some open source stuff, and I write interactive, maybe I can call them guides or books, and interactive articles on my blog. That's mostly what I do in my free time. So that's it.
Shay Neymar:So, yeah, Anton has all these runnable examples you can run directly in the in the UI, which shows, like, the difference between v one and v two.
Gabriel Augendre:Yeah. That's correct. And the the Go team even linked to Anton's blog post this time. So I believe they he made made it quite popular.
Shay Neymar:He made it. Mom, look at me. I'm on the Go blog. You know, I wonder if they link to Cup of Go at any point in the official Go documentation. We'll we'll we'll need to check.
Shay Neymar:So what are what is like your favorite difference from the new version?
Gabriel Augendre:I believe the the case insensitive unmarshalling, which is well, it's case insensitive in v one, and v two is case sensitive. It bit me a few times because you could in v one, you could have two different keys in the same JSON with different case, which is valid JSON, but the behavior can be surprising in the v one.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. It was definitely not what I expected it to to run. I love the new I I mean, there there are a few things that are nice. I kind of like it might be a bit stupid, but I really like that you have Marshall Encode and Marshall, Marshall Wright and Marshall Reed. So you don't have to, like, create a new encoder and blah blah blah.
Shay Neymar:You can just do, like, json.marshallwright. Like, it's an operation I do so often in, small scripts and whatever. It's very nice to extremely quickly be able to read and write JSON without, like Yeah. A a whole lot of ceremony. You know what I mean?
Gabriel Augendre:I agree. Yeah.
Shay Neymar:Even though it's probably the least substantial difference in terms of syntactic sugar, it's, like, the best. Would you recommend people to change to the v two To, like, turn on this experimental flag? Obviously, it'll be helpful for the Go team as, like, feedback. Right?
Gabriel Augendre:I haven't tried it myself. So I don't know if I'm ready to encourage people to try it. But, well, people, I believe, should try it for the benefit of the future proofing their code maybe. And in the end, the v one will be reimplemented in terms of v two. So all v one functions will call the v two just with a different set of options.
Gabriel Augendre:So the they seem quite confident in the implementation they did.
Shay Neymar:Cool. Well, go check out the dev blog. It's in the show notes. The link is gonna be in the show notes. And obviously, we'll, directly link to Anton's, blog as well because I honestly I I legitimately think it's better.
Shay Neymar:Anton with another, really good, thing going on. I wanted to mention a task you have to do next week. I know we just met, Gabriella, and you've been listening, but I'm already giving you tasks.
Gabriel Augendre:You're already giving me work?
Shay Neymar:No. Homework, homework. I want the survey. I want the survey completed on my desk by eight 8AM.
Gabriel Augendre:On Monday?
Shay Neymar:Yeah.
Gabriel Augendre:Dang. But 8AM in in The US, right? Oh,
Shay Neymar:so gives you you have the whole day. Yeah. So yeah, the new GO survey is out for 2025. It should take you about ten, twenty minutes and we've seen in the past how how much the survey informs the GO team on like what to do and what to focus on. Obviously they have their own agenda and it's driven by Google and one of the very visible things we see is like they talk about AI a lot and they release Genkit, we know we'll talk about it maybe next week's episode, we're just not, we haven't tried it out yet.
Shay Neymar:But they are still, like Go is still a very much a community driven language and I think this is one of the, other than actually contributing issues and pull requests and things like that, I think this is one of the most direct ways to impact way the Yeah. Language
Gabriel Augendre:And maybe one of the most easiest as well.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. It just takes like ten minutes, fill out a survey. Not that not that difficult. I actually recommend, if you're working Gabriel, you mentioned you work at the OVH Cloud as a tech lead, right? Yep.
Shay Neymar:So you you and you work with GoCode at the OVH Cloud? Yep. So my recommendation, I don't know if you've ever done something like this, but the next, like, you know, like engineering sync or design meeting or whatever, do, like, the last ten minutes, fill out the survey together. That that's usually a lot of fun. One of the most fun questions to answer in a group is, how long have you been using Go?
Shay Neymar:For me this year, this was like a whole thing. But wait, how long have you been using Go?
Gabriel Augendre:I've been using Go for maybe two to three years.
Shay Neymar:Oh, so you're gonna be in the initial. Yeah. They don't have a bracket for me anymore, bro. I'm in the 10. Wow.
Shay Neymar:That's it. I'm I'm officially old as fuck. That's the oh, Filipov blipped that out. Sorry. I'm officially older there.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. I I had to answer, for for the first time that I've been using it for more than ten years. Although to be fair, like, I don't know how you count it exactly because I've done Go ever since I've I've started doing Go. I haven't stopped doing Go, but I haven't done Go full time a 100 of the time. So I used to do Go, when I started with it, like 2014 and then I worked at a company called Gardicore and a thing called Infection Monkey that was like Python for a year and a half or something.
Shay Neymar:So I did go in the background because I liked it, but it wasn't like my full time job. So I think honest if I'm speaking like, you know, net, how much, time I've been doing Go, it's probably like six years of like full time Go, not ten. And it was just like four years in the middle where I did other languages. So I don't know how you I don't know how you count it.
Gabriel Augendre:I'd say you can count. The the question is, how long have you been using Go? It's not how long have you been using what? Using it 100% of the time or professionally
Shay Neymar:Yeah. Or I always I always had something going on, whether it's a podcast or a side project or whatever. But, the the survey this year, other than this question, which is fun, there's a lot of questions about AI obviously. Are you using Go with AI? Which curse like which editor are you using?
Shay Neymar:Blah blah blah. And I think one of the interesting questions they leave open is what is the biggest challenge you personally face using Go today? To me, this was like an interesting answer because I'm at a startup and we're not using Go at the moment, and it's like figuring out when the right moment is to transition from like shitty, you know- TypeScript. Transpilot. Yeah.
Shay Neymar:Whatever to to Go. But I assume, like, it's such a big question. People who are actually using Go, maybe it's like, oh, the libraries are not good enough. People who who are like me, like, want to use Go more. It's like, oh, getting people to actually believe that Go is more than just a server language.
Shay Neymar:I don't know. I I I'd be really interested to see the responses for this one. I believe it's So do you have it on your calendar when to do the survey?
Gabriel Augendre:I marked it Monday, eight to ten, so I can send it to you.
Shay Neymar:In all seriousness, we really encourage our listeners to do it. The the link is in the show notes, should take about ten minutes. And, yeah, go go let your opinion be known.
Gabriel Augendre:So, Shai, I believe you you had Red One on the show in the previous episode?
Shay Neymar:Yeah. That is true.
Redwan:I'm Redwan . I'm currently working at Vault, which is kind of like a European sister concern of DoorDash in The US. So, yeah, I've been doing open source for a long time and working here for around, like, two years. And I primarily work with Go.
Shay Neymar:So, yeah, we had him on the show. He writes really good blog posts.
Gabriel Augendre:Yeah. And he he published another one earlier this week about tests. You No. Use your code,
Shay Neymar:I just I use a a programming thing called bugless oriented programming, and that just saves on all the No, I'm just kidding. Obviously, I use tests. The main tests I'm using right now are, end to end tests where I set up the server and the database and I actually run, API requests because I found that at least in the setup I'm working with right now, mocking is kind of weak. Like I have unit tests for just like pure functions and then most of my testing is end to end.
Gabriel Augendre:And what frustrates you about your end to end tests? Do you have
Shay Neymar:some What frustrates me is that they're slow because they need to set up a Postgres. And if I could make them work with mocks, I would. I just didn't have the time yet.
Gabriel Augendre:Okay. So Red One advises not to use mocks because they could lead you they could lead your tests to be less readable and less maintainable. And you may end up, if you're not careful with especially with libraries that generates mocks based on an interface, you may end up with tests that verify that a function has been called once, twice with a given set of arguments. And RedOne argues that this is not the best way to test your code because you'll be mostly testing your mock, and it will be fragile. It will it may survive real bugs, which is something that you do not want in your tests.
Gabriel Augendre:And so he advises instead to either write your own fake implementation of a database, or as you do, do the real test with a real database if you if you can if you can spare the time.
Shay Neymar:The the this blog post is not specifically about Go, but the the examples in the blog post are in Go. I think in Go, this problem is a bit more obvious because, you know, when you use mocking tools like mockery and things like that, you have to generate the mock implementation. So you have to go through a build step. Whereas if you use like py like Python mocking, like with monkey patching or or just mocking in TypeScript, this happens at runtime. So you don't have to do anything and and it'll sort of still work, which is even more insidious.
Shay Neymar:Like, it's even more fragile.
Gabriel Augendre:Python, especially, I believe, if I remember my Python days is especially, in my opinion, nasty because it allows you to monkey patch something directly without it being intended to be patched.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. It doesn't have to be part of any interface. You can just it's all text. You can just rewrite text in these text files. And there was a discussion with, Josh Bleecker Snyder, friend of the show, and Red One in our Slack channel.
Shay Neymar:The the this is like a an interesting blog post, you know, and an interesting discussion in isolation, but it is not happening in isolation. The the instigator for this conversation is, Red One's frustration with a zillion lines of AI generated code, that's, that does nothing, which seems like he's been dealing with. Not a good time to mention, like, where he works probably. But have you been, like, feeling this, frustration? Is this something that you've seen, like, people giving you pull requests with AI code that does nothing, tests that are irrelevant, things like that?
Gabriel Augendre:Don't work on very popular open source packages or open source code bases. So I haven't had the chance yet in public work. And in our company, we well, in the in the company, we are working as a team, and AI as a coding companion, let's say, hasn't really been popular yet. So we haven't had these pull requests for now.
Shay Neymar:I've seen
Gabriel Augendre:Have you had to deal with them?
Shay Neymar:No. No. We're the tiny startup, so everybody's, like, super accountable. I've had to deal with, like, you know, I'm running, like, cursor background agent or cloud code. I've been trying to experiment with all these things.
Shay Neymar:I've been I've I've had them, like, run. What what I'll do is I ride to in a very French manner and not not in a very non American way, I like ride my bike to work. And what I'll do is I'll try to fire off like three or four background agents on my tasks for the day, put my kid in kindergarten, get on the bike, get to work, open my laptop and see what happened. So far it hasn't like been giving very good results, but if I like paid less attention and just opened these pull requests and send them to, you know, coworkers, they might have, they might have been like, shy, what the fuck? Like, this is this doesn't really work.
Shay Neymar:I've I have seen in a very similar vein, there's a bug bounty program for curl, like many other tools and curl is like super important so they take Yep. Security reports very seriously. I've seen something on LinkedIn today, I'll see if I can pull it up, but if not, I'll just I'll, like, explain it. We see an obviously AI generated security report that's, like, super detailed, lots of code, whatever, that doesn't actually call curl at any point. It like imports the c code and then generates some vulnerable code with curl structs, but the vulnerability doesn't actually like, it doesn't call any function in curl at any point.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. And then the maintainer the maintainer has to read through this, like, huge security report, waste a ton of their time. This is, like, super expensive people time, you know what I mean? It's like the maintainer of cURL. Dude is literally holding the Internet on their shoulders.
Shay Neymar:Then the he responds like, you're not even calling curl code. And then they respond, you're absolutely right. And it's like Oh.
Gabriel Augendre:Yeah. I hate that.
Shay Neymar:I feel like what Red One is pointing at is like, this is a mistake a person could do. But the fact that LLMs make this code more easy to write, easier to write, I should say, doesn't take away from the personal responsibility someone should have. Like, you're still accountable for the code your AI tool generates.
Gabriel Augendre:I believe so. Yeah.
Shay Neymar:I think that's You the actual
Gabriel Augendre:should be you should be accountable.
Shay Neymar:Like, oh, it's just Claude. No, man, it's you, like, you need to review it. I think a lot of people are learning it right now because they haven't been team leaders yet. But when you're a team leader and your like, one of your team members does something wrong, you're not like, oh, it's it's that guy's fault. It's you're the team leader, it's your fault.
Shay Neymar:So people are living with this with AI agents now. But still, technically, LLMs aside, technically, this is a good blog post. Like, I would introduce this to any coding standard, like use mocks sparingly, know when to use a mock, know when to use a fake, know when to use the real implementation, right? It's a good balance.
Gabriel Augendre:Yeah, the it's the what's introduced the post, but it can be applied to
Shay Neymar:anything. Cool.
Gabriel Augendre:So, Shai, we've been talking for about twenty minutes now. What, what about a quick break?
Shay Neymar:That sounds great. As Gabriel mentioned at the top of the show, this show is supported by you. The easiest way to support us and the most direct way is just give us money through Patreon. Thanks a lot for Sarangan Thuraiman. No way I'm saying that correctly.
Shay Neymar:Joined us on Patreon this week. Yeah, this is a hobby, but we do it and we do it for fun, but it costs us a bit of money, you know, time at work and, hosting fees and editing costs and things like that. So Patreon is the easiest way to, make this hobby a little less expensive for us. You can find the link to Patreon and all the rest of the things like, our Slack channel where a lot of the discussions we had this week actually came from, and our shop and our email and past episodes with transcripts. You can find all of that at cupogo.dev.
Shay Neymar:That is cupogo.dev. You mentioned you checked out the show, Gabriel.
Gabriel Augendre:Yeah. I checked out the the show, and I checked out the the Cupogo store. I see the, a sticker that I really like, and I may need one for my laptop, which is quite crowded already.
Shay Neymar:It's not that big. It's like a it's a good size. I have one. I have it. You you won't be able to see it like listeners right now, but Gabriel is able to see my wallet.
Shay Neymar:So it fits on like a wallet.
Shay Neymar:We're not gonna have room.
Gabriel Augendre:No. But I I put them on top of the others, so the the next one replaces the previous.
Shay Neymar:I legitimately worry that your laptop is heavier than it should because of all these stickers. But yeah, we actually got quite a few, swag, orders this week. It was a refreshing thing in my email. It's like order, receive, order, receive. That was cool.
Shay Neymar:I like it when people get the show swag. If you have any swag requests or ideas, drop them in the Slack channel. It's like with a reprinter, so we can do whatever idea you have. Other than getting swag or joining our Patreon, the best way you can support the show is to leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast, or just share this show with like coworkers, friends, or co students, or whoever you know in your life who's doing Go right now. That's it for the ad break.
Shay Neymar:Let's do a quick lightning round and wrap this one up. Stick around after the lightning round because we also have an interesting interview with Matt Boyle from Bite Size Go and Ona. Super interesting. You you gotta hear that conversation. Lightning round.
Shay Neymar:My thing for the lightning round is a very French thing. Go team is taking a week, of a quiet week, which is something I wasn't aware of, but it's actually in the wiki that periodically through the year, the Go team holds quiet weeks with no important conversations happening to give people time to focus on deep work. So not great for the podcast because we are supposed to report on the important happenings with no important conversations. How could that happen? But seems like a no meetings week where people are encouraged to take a vacation, but they don't have to.
Shay Neymar:They can also do really deep work. So that's great. You can expect people to not respond on the Golang issue tracker and to not have meeting minutes and things like that. But yeah, I'm down for them to do deep work and actually solve like hard problems if we give them some time. That's a really cool idea.
Shay Neymar:Alright. The show is not planning to take a quite week, but we'll we'll do something. What do you have for the lightning round?
Gabriel Augendre:My item for the lightning round is an article by Philmore Labs, entitled The Day the Linter Broke My Code, in which the author describes, Well, they implemented a feature in their codebase, and they ran some linter over it, and the linter suggested a fix. They even applied the auto fix that the Linter provides. But this fix breaks the author's code in subtle ways that you may not see if you're not testing properly. So, well, we won't dive into too much details and not spoil the article, but it will be in the show notes for all of the story. The your linters are not silver bullets.
Gabriel Augendre:Yeah. For helpful.
Shay Neymar:We had a linters discussion in the the Slack channel as well that's we'll link in the show notes, where Ken Smith mentioned like because we talked about naked returns, in one of the latest episodes, we we talked about like, should you introduce a Golang Sea Island? And generally, were like, don't use all the linters in Golang Sea Island.
Gabriel Augendre:Oh, no.
Shay Neymar:And I was like, yeah, you you should probably you you shouldn't probably use all of them, but my opinion is add them a la carte, like start with very few and then every week or so, add one or two, the good ones, right? Like there's a lot of value in incrementally adding those because you have time to learn what they do, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. Agree. But in Ken's case, the linters were okay.
Shay Neymar:They didn't introduce bugs. That's pretty rare that that happens.
Gabriel Augendre:It's rare, but, yeah, it can happen.
Shay Neymar:So Yeah. Never accepted blindly for sure. No. All right. Well, cool stuff.
Shay Neymar:Gabriel, thanks a lot for joining. I hope you had Thank you
Gabriel Augendre:a lot for having me. Yeah. I had fun a lot.
Shay Neymar:If, people wanna find you online, where where can they find you?
Gabriel Augendre:The best place to find me would be on my website, my blog, gabnotes.org.
Shay Neymar:Link in the show notes, of course.
Gabriel Augendre:Awesome. There's an about page, and you can find ways to contact me if you want.
Shay Neymar:Thanks, man.
Gabriel Augendre:Thank you.
Shay Neymar:Oh, this was great. We'll see you all next week. I'm not sure about the dates because it's Jewish high holidays. My parents are visiting The US. It's gonna be a hectic time for me, but I'm sure we'll be able to figure it out.
Shay Neymar:In the meanwhile, for our Jewish listeners, which is like happy New Year, because it's Jewish New Year, and enjoy your quiet week. Maybe you can show your bosses at work that Go has a quiet weekend because you're a Go developer, no meetings for you as well. Otherwise, your code won't compile or something.
Gabriel Augendre:Oh, man. I would love that.
Shay Neymar:You know what? Try it and report back next week because Gabriel is looking for work. Alright. Thanks a lot for listening, everybody. Alright, man.
Shay Neymar:I'm so hungry. I could really go for some some bite sized snacks right now. If only there was someone on the call who could help me with that. Oh, hey, Matt.
Matt Boyle:Best introduction I've ever heard. I love that.
Shay Neymar:I mean, it's better than from the top ropes with a steel chair, it's Matt I
Matt Boyle:mean, that's I don't know which one to pick as the best one now. They're both pretty up there. Amazing.
Shay Neymar:They're both on the record. Everybody, it's Matt Boyle. Matt, please introduce yourself.
Matt Boyle:Well, I don't know how to follow the introduction, honestly. But, yeah, I'm I'm Matt. I'm currently the head of engineering at a company called Ona, where we are building an AI platform using Go. I also am very, very active to the best of my ability in the in the Go community. I run a website called bitesizego.com, where I try and teach people post beginner lessons on on on on Go and spend a ton of time, running a Go community on Twitter as well, where I try and encourage people to help people learn Go as well.
Matt Boyle:So two two sides to me, I suppose.
Shay Neymar:Well, everybody's, multifaceted in a way. I'm sure people listen to this show and they're like, oh, Shy, he's the Go guy. They what they actually don't know is that I suck at all languages, just so you know.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. And battle them all equally. Yeah.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. But let's start let's start with let's start with Bite Size Go because I think I assume that most people, if they have heard of it, and that's how we got connected, is through Bite Size Go. And immediately, the thing that's interesting is intermediate. You're like gating it to not absolute beginners. And I'm interested in why, like why would you do that in in the space where most people are beginners?
Shay Neymar:Like if you look at the at the surveys and just in general, normally most people are beginners, not, intermediates or seniors. So why not cater your, thing to the widest audience possible?
Matt Boyle:Makes sense. I think, I mean, my my general, thoughts were maybe some people are still in that beginner bracket because there's no way out. Like, there's no clear path to to get out to the to make them feel like they're they're leveling up and they're at the intermediate stage. Right? This actually stopped this the whole project started.
Matt Boyle:The reason I started working at BiteSycho is, I was I was working at Cloudflare for a number of years there, and we actually really struggled to hire Go engineers. Honestly, There just wasn't a whole bunch of Go engineers out there. There was people who kind of done the beginner pieces, lots of people who'd learned Java or stuff like that. And we were we were finding we were tended to hire people who hadn't wrote Go and teaching them on the job, which worked fine. It's very, very, as we all know, like Go is incredibly productive.
Matt Boyle:It's very, very easy to get up to speed on. But I wondered if, you know, I could do my bit, I suppose, to help people get to the next level outside of outside of work so that then maybe they had more confidence to go and apply for their go jobs that were open and to be more successful in it. So I wasn't necessarily interested in catering to the to the widest audience. I think it was more interesting to try and just make, the content that I wish I had while I was learning is kind of how I framed it to myself when I was when I was doing this. I was very fortunate that I got some you know, I got to work at, a company called Curve where I got to write Go for production.
Matt Boyle:And then obviously, I got to spend time at Cloudflare where I got to write Go for production. But not everybody gets to have the opportunity. Right? And, so part of thing I wanted to do is give people the chance to maybe have the opportunity.
Shay Neymar:So it's sort of, what you would like to have had when you were doing the that transition. Think that's the When, best like, people try to make content for content's sake instead of doing just things that they are interested in in doing at the moment, it's very apparent. Especially now that generating content is, well, at least mediocre content is pretty free.
Matt Boyle:You know what I mean? Yeah. Absolutely. It's definitely getting harder, I think, to, tell what's been AI generated and what hasn't. I'm there's some stuff I read and I'm, like, doubting it now.
Matt Boyle:And I almost feel bad doing that because, like, like, someone spent a lot of time on this and, like, I you know, I am like, is this was this generated by ChatGPT? And it turns out it wasn't, then you feel kinda guilty, but you're suspicious of all content now. Right? You're always like, there probably was AI involved somewhere here.
Shay Neymar:I had a real, falling out with our this might be a bit too much inside baseball here for my startup, but our designer is a proper American person and is writing in proper American English, so they use em dashes. And she's writing really proper sentences just because she she cares. And I was like, this is some CA generated. She's like, no, Amdashes aren't correct.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. I saw Paul Graham on Twitter and also there was like a whole counter movement for a while. It's like, let's let's claim back, you know, the Amdash. Like, it belongs to the English language. You should be allowed to use it without being accused of generating content.
Matt Boyle:Like, let's bring it back.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. For sure. So if I go to ByteSizeGo, what what can I find that will help me, you know, level up as a as an intermediate or a senior Go engineer?
Matt Boyle:Yes. The first course I ever created was actually on debugging. So very, very niche. It's like, okay. So you start from your local, application and, you know, you you log.
Matt Boyle:Like, you log to the console. That's how everyone starts out debugging. Right? But there's all these tools you can build on top of that that, again, was very fortunate to get to experience, as I kind of navigated my career in terms of firstly using the debugger, then getting into, like, Grafana, using metrics, distribute tracing, how to, profile the Go application and figure out where, you know, it's could be faster or why you're seeing slowdown. It's a kind of a progressive walk through like local, don't really know how to debug all the way through to this is how incredibly large companies save CPU by, you know, kind of looking around at some of this stuff.
Matt Boyle:So that was the first thing I ever did. That landed really well despite my The
Shay Neymar:coding is like a is like a an art. Whenever I interview someone and, you know, we have a coding exercise and instead of adding a ton of prints because the our coding exercise is on a real code base. Well, real. Like, it's on a you give them, like, a toy code base, but it has some bugs. Whenever they add a breakpoint instead of just adding a ton of prints, it's immediately, like, plus 15 points on my evaluation.
Matt Boyle:Interesting. So I actually there was a a very small amount of controversy around my my debug calls from some folks who said debugging is using the debugger is is a waste of time. Like you shouldn't you shouldn't be using it. If you if you're using a debugger, you've made your program too complicated. You should be able to hold in your mind the, like, the control flow and it's powerful to have to walk through it.
Matt Boyle:So we actually was like a like a bit of back and forth between folks on on X about, know, whether you need to debug or not and I was really surprised by it. It caught me somewhat off guard because to me I just don't understand why you would not use such a a useful and and powerful tool. I I love it. I still use the debugger to to this day fairly regularly even though, I also use AI quite a bit to discover the the first few, issues I'm seeing, you
Shay Neymar:know. Mhmm. I'm not sure what's the case of let's not use, you know, let let's not use a debugger. I mean, it's a tool. Using it doesn't mean I don't know.
Shay Neymar:That sounds like an interesting discussion, but it's it's a bit too much of a rabbit hole for us to to fully flesh out. If we actually, if we flesh out every discussion in your x threads, then we're probably we can probably spin off a whole podcast just on, Matt is arguing with people on Twitter.
Matt Boyle:I like the name of that podcast. Maybe we should make it.
Shay Neymar:Okay. So there's a debugging course. I see there's also, like gRPC courses, CLI courses, and recently AI engineering, which is like probably pretty hot.
Matt Boyle:It is. So the the CLI course, partnered with one of my friends, Marion, who's a senior engineer at Netflix. Like And that's the thing I always try to do with these courses is I went and found people, well I just happened to have in my network. Honestly through GopherCon nearly everybody who made a call or has worked with me I've met at GopherCon so you know shout out to going to GopherCon and meeting people take the hallway track speak at these conferences. You meet great people.
Matt Boyle:But wanted to meet people who'd done these things in industry, right, and could could bring the enterprise angle to them. So Mary did one on CLIs and how to think about them with her experience in Netflix. My friend Chris did one on gRPC with his experience at Cloudflare and Google and, like, how to think about it from there. And then the latest one on AI, engineering is is is from my friend who works at Plane, which is a like an up and coming customer support startup, but he's he's truly excellent. He'd actually done a bunch of courses before for, I think it was Udemy or Udacity, and, generally is a great educator and has had roles educating before.
Matt Boyle:So his AI engineering course is is fantastic, actually. I I really enjoyed working with him on that one.
Shay Neymar:Cool. I'm wondering if, the how much the AI engineering course is, like, a proper AI engineering course? Or how much is it you just, took the onboarding from Ona and packaged it to the course? Because it seems like super relevant. But before we before we get to Ona, is there like who's the who's the persona, like, you you think should visit Bite Size Go?
Shay Neymar:So it's like a team lead looking to upscale their team or someone preparing to pass, a senior interview. Is that the sort of people you would imagine joining, like, this community?
Matt Boyle:Yeah. So there's there's two personas, I think. So one is you've done the beginner content and you're looking for the what's next. And, I have a blog somewhere. I need to update it, to be honest.
Matt Boyle:But there's a there's a blog article I wrote, which is really popular, which is called I think it's called learning Go in 2025. And basically, I I take it from wherever you are today. And I say these are things you should listen to, these are things you should read, these are things you should learn, I'll get you to the next level. Some of it includes my courses, some of it means go elsewhere, go and read a blog, go and, you know, listen to old Go Time episodes, may it rest in peace, and, and, you know, some of the blogs and stuff that I really enjoyed. So you should be able to find a path from this is where I am today, so this is where I'm going next.
Matt Boyle:I also at one point published a, it sounds similar to your coding exercise actually that you do at your company, which is great. I have a GitHub repo where I published a semi working Go project that's got a bunch of errors in it, and you can use that to try and figure out how, like, where you are at being able to debug someone else's code. Like, can you see issues in it? It's got security issues as well as business logic errors in it. So, you know, you can see if you could line up to that.
Matt Boyle:And I give a rubric of this is what an intermediate answer looks like. This is what I, you know, expect a senior engineer to be able to answer to it too. Team leads could come and say like, oh, I I want my team to learn this topic we're about to use. Like, gRPC is one that's quite foundational. You might be like, we're about to use this at work.
Matt Boyle:Hey, everyone go and watch this. This is how, you know, they use gRPC at Google Cloudflare. Like, there's some good insights here. So probably kind of both of those audiences. I hope are catered for, but let me know.
Matt Boyle:I also did a small thing last year, which kind of goes against my original promise, but seems so valuable I did it anyway, which there is a course for free. I did with, I did it with JetBrains and it's called learning Go with Goland. And, I take you through, starting from you can write a line of Go all the way through to building, like, two or three projects. It's completely free. And if you complete the course, get a free year's license to to Goland as well.
Shay Neymar:Oh, that's that's actually pretty cool.
Matt Boyle:Absolutely. So it was a no brainer. Was like, of course, I'll do this. This makes sense. Like, why why would I not?
Shay Neymar:The question is do you use, Goland? But I assume now the answer is you use ONA.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. So, ONA's pretty interesting. Let's jump to that. So
Shay Neymar:so I'll say as a as an outside observer, I'm not I'm not a a user, but if I understand it correctly, it's stepping into a pretty red ocean of, AI coding thingies that I'm afraid already to use like the word agent because it's been devoidable. Like, it's the life have been sucked out of that word. It's meaningless now. I'm afraid of using the word assistant because it sounds like it's gonna talk to me. I don't know what to call it even.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. Makes
Shay Neymar:sense. It's an AI coding thing thingy.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. So let me let
Shay Neymar:me Maybe I can direct it a bit more.
Matt Boyle:Let me demystify the thingy. So what we built, what we built to ONA was, we built what we call mission control for AI agents. So we've all, we're all using AI agents, We're using Cursor, we're using Codecs, we're using CloCode. These things run on your local machine. They make changes to file systems.
Matt Boyle:They don't have a whole bunch of controls. So we've all got that annoying thing where we have to allow every single command to happen. We also have to potentially risk the fact that it could go ahead and delete files, etcetera. There's also this whole other category of people called background agents that you've got, cursor background agents, you've got codecs. These things are all awesome.
Matt Boyle:I I love all of them. But all of these things require you to kind of change the way you work and are very hard for very large enterprises to adopt due to risk appetite reasons. So this is where kind of ONA fits in. So the way the ONA platform works is we deploy it into large enterprises VPCs. So we deploy into the AWS or their GCP account.
Matt Boyle:And when you go into owner, you select one of your projects that you're working on, and you click start. Opens a remote development environment inside that VPC that's completely sandboxed and ephemeral, and all of the agent interactions happens inside the sandbox. So if the agent does anything that you're unhappy with, you just blow it away. So it's very, very controlled. It all happens within the network perimeter.
Matt Boyle:And it also means that if you want to kind of have tighter restrictions around your networking, you can do that so that the agent has limited ability to do things. And we also have guardrails, which are like, agents aren't allowed to do this command. Agents aren't allowed to use this MTP server. So it gives, companies that couldn't necessarily use all these AI tools that you can use at home on the weekend. We give them a way to be able to use them, in their enterprise, which means that, you know, they can have the same productivity boost that that we get.
Shay Neymar:Awesome. And just like in a glance as the as the head of engineering, this you're saying this is written in Go, like this platform. Right?
Matt Boyle:The whole thing's written in Go, yeah.
Shay Neymar:So all But I thought Go was bad for AI. I thought you needed to use Python for AI.
Matt Boyle:I mean, that's, you know, that's that's what people have to believe, you know? Like, I think one one thing that That's always
Shay Neymar:what they want you to Yeah.
Matt Boyle:I don't know. I always, so Go is, as we all know, and I'm preaching to the choir on this podcast, incredibly versatile. I think there are some disadvantages to using it for writing, AI agents, mostly just around ecosystem. Like in Python, there really is a package for everything and everything's been done before. If you write an AI agent or or platform in something like Go, you do have to write a lot more from scratch.
Matt Boyle:I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. It means we're very, careful about the dependencies we we do pull in, and it also means we can contribute back if we need to where it makes sense. So we were we're actually discussing today probably gonna have to make a a commit to the standard library to, we were struggling with some the MCP support. It's not quite the same as the, the TypeScript MCP support. So we're probably gonna contribute back.
Matt Boyle:But I love everything about that sentence. Like, I want us to be known for for building something interesting in Go. And if we can help forward, like, the, you know, Go Go is a place to build AI, we'll we'll do that too. So I'm actually excited about the the fact that it's not necessarily popular yet, but one of my personal missions is to make it so it is. So, you can let's see where we're at in twelve months.
Matt Boyle:Maybe I can come back on this podcast and we can review whether as a company we were successful in in bringing some AI adoption to building AI tooling.
Shay Neymar:We actually mentioned in the, like, pre roll to the show that, it's also helpful. In in some sense, it's helpful that, packages are not as willy nilly in go as in NPM just because this week. Well, this week as we're recording, I'm not exactly sure when the interview is gonna come out. But there was I'm sure that it's gonna my sentence is gonna be true every week. This week, NPM, security vulnerability with supply chain has been exposed.
Shay Neymar:Some developer has been pwned and now all companies are at risk when they upgrade. I don't know, shift left or ANSI colors or something like super basic.
Matt Boyle:That's it. And you're speaking to two really important things here. One is the Go ecosystem generally is is is very good with this stuff. And we have this sort of principle of not pulling in dependencies unless we actually have to. And I think with, how easy it is to generate code that's actually pretty good now, there's even more reason you probably shouldn't pull in a whole bunch of dependencies.
Matt Boyle:A little a little copying is better than a little dependency as we say. But the other thing is what you just spoke about about that dependency risk is exactly why large enterprises are a bit nervous around, you know, fully adopting AI agents because things like that are very easy to introduce, especially if you're sort of vibe coding something and not paying too much attention to what's happening. So having guardrails and controls is is one of our main focus areas, to be honest. It's like, what does it look like for an AI agent to still be productive, but also operate within the risk appetite of of of companies that, have strict regulation around them. Right?
Matt Boyle:Like, they don't have the same ability to just let engineers run whatever they want on the laptop.
Shay Neymar:Mhmm. So how did these guardrails in general, I understand that, you know, like a bank or like a hospital can't have their engineers just run whatever because they're under regulation. But in practice, how can you make AI agents safer? You mentioned you're deploying to the customer's cloud, so that's like data residency. But is it just like a system prompt that's like, please, please, please, please don't hallucinate.
Shay Neymar:Please, I beg you. My entire product page is all about don't leak the keys or is this is it something a bit more sophisticated?
Matt Boyle:I mean, it's it's all it's it's that plus a lot more. I mean, the system prompt is surprisingly effective. Honestly, I won't I won't pretend that we don't have a system prompt that says something like, you know, do do smart things please, mister agent. Like, it's it it does work. But it's it's that's layer one defense.
Matt Boyle:Right? Layer two is, then we have sort of network controls. So, you know, enterprise can set up their own like, these are the egress rules around this remote development environment. This is what we're comfortable with. Then there's also sort of the controls around MTP.
Matt Boyle:So every time before our agent calls an MTP server, it will check policy to ensure it's allowed to do so. And if it doesn't, it's just blocked. So it's not allowed to do so.
Shay Neymar:Cool. Are you using, like, some Go ish, policy language like Rego or or something like that? Like, it's obviously an internal, implementation implementation detail. I'm sure just the Go listeners will love to nerd out on, oh, why did you it's Ricoh. You should have chosen JSONata.
Shay Neymar:No. You should have chosen this policy language. No. You should have chosen this policy language.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. So we we did look at Open Policy Agent, generally as a as an approach. I've actually used that previously at Cloudflare very successfully. It's it's it's really cool. I think one of the challenges with AI agents is they have a very heavy reward function to achieve the goal, and they will find ways around policy.
Matt Boyle:They'll do really creative things to to be able to to to break out of it, which is which is really interesting actually. So what we're actually investing in at the moment, is like going down to the kernel level. Like, we're gonna be looking at eBPF and looking at ways to actually really stop at the kernel level agents doing things that we're not comfortable with us doing. So you can expect to see us do some pretty pretty interesting things very, very soon in this space.
Shay Neymar:Super interesting. Like, they you have an adversary, an insider risk, like, you're you're you're not allowed to use this MCP, so it will use, like, the back the the backup MCP or something?
Matt Boyle:Yeah. The so the one example we saw play out in practice was, we have this we already have this concept of command denialists. So these are things the agent is not allowed to do. So let's imagine you have, an AWS CLI in your environment, and we block it. We say you're not allowed to use this.
Matt Boyle:So the agent will discover it's got the the AWS CLI. It will try and use it. It will get blocked by our platform, but it won't say, oh, I got blocked. Fair enough. It will try and find a way to interact with the AWS CLI instead.
Matt Boyle:So maybe I'll make a post request instead, you know, that looks like the command that we're in CLI. Yeah. So you you always have this balance of AI agents there to serve you, but also it's it's they're so heavily, invested in the success of the task that you've given them. You've got to really make sure you have these controls in place. So we're investing very, very heavily in guardrails.
Matt Boyle:And I think over the next year or so, especially in large companies, you'll see the conversation move to this. And so I like to think we're a little bit ahead of the curve here. We, we are investing to, to make this so when, the FOMO wears out a little bit about, you know, we need AI and we need it now. The next conversation is gonna be, okay, we've let Pandora out of the box. Like, what do we what do we do here to make sure that we can keep all the controls we want to have in place?
Matt Boyle:And I think this is this is the way we're gonna start positioning too.
Shay Neymar:I was, I just moved here to the Bay Area and here the AI is like, you know, you go to San Francisco and every billboard is like about AI. It's like, it's something in the water. It's crazy. It's like a very different vibe. I went to a meetup with, you know, people from the like Frontier Labs, OpenAI and Amazon Bedrock and and Anthropic, people from the safety teams.
Shay Neymar:And they sit and they're like, they're pondering questions like, if you train because of the reward function, if you train the model to not have like, if you look at its chain of thought and you train it to not have bad thoughts, will it stop having bad behaviors? And even they, like, their answers are kind of vague and scary. Like, no. Not really. It just finds ways around us, so we need like, it it literally feels like they let Pandora out of the box.
Matt Boyle:It really does get there's there's more than ever, there's a really fine line between engineering and philosophy, isn't there? Like, I've found we we have to spend a lot more time in the in the philosophy, area than we ever did before, which I I think is so interesting. But, yeah, there's a lot of hard questions and things to figure out here.
Shay Neymar:So coming back to, the ONA platform. So it seems like something that developers would use. Seems like developers are your users, but that, like, big companies would buy. So you you sell it to like big companies, so you need to talk about security, but, the the actual people using it are developers like myself. What's like my experience?
Shay Neymar:Am I like writing code in an ID or am I like just talking to, my agents like over Slack? What's what's my experience like? You mentioned mission control and that to me reads, you're not gonna write code yourself.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. So the we we work it works in a couple of ways. So the first one is, you know, imagine you're a large company. Our biggest customers tend to be some of the largest banks in the world. And let's say you've got 10,000 repos.
Matt Boyle:Right? They're all slightly different. They all start a little bit different. Like, a really common metric that I'm sure every company measures is like time to first commit. And it's not really unusual for an engineer to join a company and it take three, four weeks then to be able to be productive as they figure out how to navigate this new landscape.
Matt Boyle:So one of the first things we we do and why developers often love us, even though we talk about security lot, is our goal is to get that time to first commit to one less than one day. And we and the way we do this is, by standardizing development environments around, Linux VMs, which is ultimately what we deploy into their VPC. It means we get to make a lot of assumptions, which is really powerful actually. Everybody's working no matter if they've got a Mac, they're on the phone or on an iPad. You're ultimately developing on the same box, which is remote in inside, your VPC.
Matt Boyle:We use dev container standard for that. So you define your dev container, and then ultimately, we can we can spin that up into your environment. The way I like frame this is we get your best engineer to configure it once, and then everybody gets to benefit from that. So that's the first way is is so you spin up your remote environment, and then you can connect to it however you like. So we've got native support for, Versus Code, including Versus Code browser, cursor, Windsurf, all the JetBrains stack, you're effectively inside owner.
Matt Boyle:There's one button click to jump into your ID of choice, and you can work directly in there. Especially for the Versus Code forked repo forked browser IDs like the Versus code itself and cursor and WinSurf, the experience is very, very similar to developing locally. It's lightning fast and you can still use exactly the same functionality. So you don't really feel any difference, from from working locally except the actual code and everything that's happening is is on a very beefy box inside AWS.
Shay Neymar:But but if I want, I can spend, like, a ton of background agents and try to have them, like, solve the the like, stuff in the background and then just review it.
Matt Boyle:Absolutely. So that's the that's the one way we show up is like this sort of, we call it craft mode, like this manual mode where you're developing exactly the same way you always have, but with a remote environment.
Shay Neymar:Boutique mode, organic, farm to table code. It's becoming more and more rare.
Matt Boyle:I actually like boutique mode. I love that. But then
Shay Neymar:Feel free to take it.
Matt Boyle:I I might do. But then we also have, you know, what what's kind of commonly become known as as as background agents is you can also open the owner platform. You can pick a project, and then you can say, here's the task I wanna get done, And it will spin off an environment and use the dev container standard. Everything you configured for humans actually makes it great for agents too. It will spin up that environment and then you it'll start doing the work for you, and let you know when it's done.
Matt Boyle:You can then one click jump into an IDE if you want to. So, you know, a lot of tasks we see that agents generally get to 90% completion, especially for moderate to hard tasks. So once it's done, you can then jump into Versus Code browser, which we have alongside the agent conversation. You can review the code there, which I do often, and you can also make minor changes yourself and then push it together. So it's kind of this agent human collaboration we're we're going for.
Matt Boyle:But often we're seeing our engineers spin off five, six, seven tasks at once. They work in the background, and then I'll start a new environment, open an ID, and do the more interesting pieces of work. Right? The feature I'm excited about, I work on that. And the agents can work on the CV updates, the updates to Readmes, the large scale refactors, what whatever it might be that, you know, you don't want jump out of bed in the morning to do.
Matt Boyle:Let let Yeah. An agent handle that, and you work on the new feature.
Shay Neymar:I set up a a, like, hacky thing for myself, like, quite a few months ago with the git work trees. I was like, ah, I'm gonna do git work trees and then I'm gonna have multiple instances of, like, cursor running and I'm gonna jump in between those windows, etcetera, etcetera. And then everybody came out came out with like background engines. I was like, ah, all that wasted time.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. This is this is what you really wanted. Yeah.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. Very cool. One thing we talked about in the beginning of the show, which was like in the pre roll, which was interesting and I wanted to mention here was, like you're hiring I don't know if to call it like woes or or problems or opportunities. I don't know. You you decide how to frame it.
Shay Neymar:But let's say our listeners are like, oh, Onus sounds cool and I like working on dev tooling and it seems relevant to me. Where are you based by the way? It's probably a good question.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. So I'm based in London, but, we're international as a company. I am hiring a couple of roles at the moment actually. One is Go engineers. So if you are I would say trending towards senior Go engineer just because of the the problem space we're operating in is is pretty challenging.
Matt Boyle:So if you have networking experience, you have some Go experience, we'd love to chat to you, especially if you live in London or Europe, which is typically where we're kind of concentrating on hiring at the moment. But we're also, hiring what we call forward deployed engineers, and these are people who would join our biggest customers on-site to build custom solutions for them, help them kind of roll out ONA across their enterprise. We're hiring for those in New York and London. So if you have Go experience and you love the idea of actually spending more time in a customer facing role, but also particularly love to speak to you.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. And of course, don't forget that Cup of Go gets of course a 20%, cut of your No. I'm just kidding. Free 99, that's the price of a reference, from the show. We would love to hear Like if I actually I actually in the I think last year, someone was like, man, I I got into contact from someone from the show and got a a job through the Slack.
Shay Neymar:I was like, oh my god, that's so good. It's like a totally unintended side effect of creating this community. But interestingly, these, jobs are not listed on your careers page. And I I thought it it was an interesting discussion. Why?
Shay Neymar:Like, why not? Because why not share this role?
Matt Boyle:Yeah. I mean, we we may put them back on there. I think one of the challenges I personally found is, you know, we're a relatively small company and we do hiring very, very, intensely. Like, I will spend hours with someone to like, when when interviewing them, we wanna have people who are great great fits. And so we invest quite a lot into into hiring.
Matt Boyle:So when we had job roles open on the website, we kind of got quite a lot of applications. A lot of them maybe didn't even have any go experience. Maybe we're in countries that we couldn't support, unfortunately. We're quite a small company. We can't really support visa sponsorship.
Matt Boyle:We have that all listed on the on the job spec. But think because it's so hard to find job roles, people just apply anyway and and hope for the best, which I, you know, what it's worth, like, totally get. I, I admire the hustle, but it's just not something at the size we're at we can support right now. So, kind of doing it the opposite way, doing, are always welcome to reach out to me on Twitter. And I would love to either help you find a role or, you know, see if you're a fit for owner, if it makes sense.
Matt Boyle:So you can find me on Matt James Boyle. Do my best to respond to every DM I get. But ultimately we do a lot of sort of hiring where I'll reach out to people directly on LinkedIn, on an X. And also we'll do work with recruiters who go and find us like three to five people to interview instead, just because we find that to be a lot more successful than than having inbound opportunities at the moment. One thing you could take away from this, which is maybe more optimistic, is I think a lot of people feel a little bit like we feel.
Matt Boyle:So if a company isn't hiring at the moment, somebody really excited about working, is you know don't be afraid to reach out to someone you know who works there and just say, hey I'd love to work here, here's why and you know just give a little bit of insight into why particularly you're interested in potentially working that role. You'd be surprised if that they may may be looking or about to be looking and how much that, warm outreach and, you know, the fact you've kind of targeted your your search really counts to to people who are spending time hiring. But it would encourage you to do that.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. So, you can find ONA on on Twitter, on X, whatever. I'm gonna call it Twitter, whatever. At Ona underscore HQ and they can find you at at matt jamesboyle.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. That's cool.
Shay Neymar:Which is way more official than mattboyle. It's even kind of intimidating. Yep. Sounds like it sounds like a bible version.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. So I don't I don't know much about, American politics, but there's a I think there's a semi famous, maybe he's a politician or maybe he's a journalist, I don't know, called Matt Boyle in The US. And so I think he's got all the good handles. And so I have to I have to, I I have to put my middle name in there to be able to claim anything. I once tried to set up a Google alert to see if anyone was talking about my goal courses, and I got a bunch of, political charged notifications instead.
Matt Boyle:So I had to I had to turn it off.
Shay Neymar:Luckily, with a name like Shainich Mahd, you're not gonna that's that's not gonna happen
Matt Boyle:a lot. You don't have the same problem, no?
Shay Neymar:No. No. Nobody's talking about me. Don't worry about it.
Matt Boyle:Well, that's not true.
Shay Neymar:Well, we're running up on time here. I actually wish we could talk more, but I I'm actually literally on a on a meeting. We do have this, one question, which I think for someone like you would be extra interesting. So you mentioned you worked at Cloudflare and you have these Go courses when you talk to these like illustrious Go people from like other companies, Netflix, whatever. We have this question we ask all our interviews, which is who was the person who sort of influenced your Go journey the most?
Matt Boyle:So I I have a I have a really nice story here, actually. I'll try and keep it succinct because I know you gotta go. But one of my, one of the first blog posts I ever remember reading was Dave Chaney's on how to do functional options. And we shared this around our company and we started using it, and I thought it was really cool. And I spent a lot of time reading around Dave Chaney's blogs and his writing.
Matt Boyle:I always enjoyed the depth he wrote wrote at. And then a couple of years ago, I I was asked to do the keynote at GopherCon in Singapore. And so I I went there, really good opportunity. I spoke at it, and one of the speakers was Dave Cheney. So I got to spend some time with Dave Cheney, got to know him.
Matt Boyle:We became really good friends. We now text often. I went to Australia in December, which is where he lives, for Christmas and we met for met for dinner and we still text back and forth now. I mentioned to him about the functional options blog post and like how it influenced me and he was like, oh yeah, I need to update that. So I always enjoy that.
Matt Boyle:But yeah, like he's he's been incredibly influential to a lot of people. Annoyingly, he's also an incredibly nice person. So he's one of those people who's very into it influential, very, very smart, and also really nice. So he's just one of those people who are just unflawed as far as I'm concerned, and I I feel, a great privilege to they say never meet your heroes, but I met mine, and it turned out he's a good guy.
Shay Neymar:Wow. That's awesome. I think you're not the first mention first person to mention Dave, by the way, as the as an influential character in their GO journey. So so good on Dave for for getting people on that on their wave. You know what I mean?
Matt Boyle:Absolutely. I didn't know he
Shay Neymar:lived in Australia.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. Yeah. He lives in lives in Sydney. But they've been, I think he was writing some of the earliest Go content. He's, you know, you can go back to sort of 2012, 2013, like him and Matt Raya, like, were the the people who I used to come across often when I was, you know, researching Go content back then, they were using it before it was even Go one, you know.
Matt Boyle:So they really were Yeah. For sure. The bleeding edge.
Shay Neymar:Well, the the main thing, to take from that is what what you mentioned about, I think you mentioned it twice already, go to conferences, to either to meet, candidates or now to meet Dave Cheney. I think going to conferences is is a is a good, goal in general.
Matt Boyle:I have another funny story on that actually. So the at GopherCon London last year, I was stood talking to Dave Chaney, and he doesn't actually have his picture very much on the Internet, so people don't really know what he looks And someone was talking to me and Dave Chaney about one of the blogs that Dave Chaney wrote saying how good it was. And Dave was just at their nodding, and they hadn't really clocked that it was him. And, he didn't tell them, and, I I thought that was very funny, and I I admire that about him too. But, yeah, at a lot of conferences, he's like wandering around and people don't really sort of recognize him, I don't think.
Shay Neymar:I have no idea how the how the guy looks. You know, there are some people who I I imagine as as gopher emoji just because instead of a or a gopher like cartoon instead of the person. Even if I've met them, like, Bill Kennedy from Ardan Labs, like I've I've talked to him on the show. I know how he looks like. But like, I can't imagine him as anything else than a cartoon gopher.
Matt Boyle:Yeah. With the hat. Like, that famous hat of his. No. Bill's great.
Matt Boyle:He's he's another person I first met at at GovCon in Singapore, actually. So that was it was a good good GovCon. He's has so much energy, and he's such a great, educator, especially, you know, like he he did this talk then where he talked about something that typically would be pretty dry. It was about like limits in Kubernetes. But like he came on stage, he's like dancing to like, music from Miami, which is where he's from and he loves and he makes a really dry topic, really, like, energizing.
Matt Boyle:And I've always admired that about him. He's a he's he's a really great educator.
Shay Neymar:Awesome. Well, Matt, thanks a lot for coming on the show. I've put, we'll put the links to, Ona and your Twitter and, Bite Size Go in the show's description. You mentioned you you have, like, DMs open. People are, like, welcome to talk to you after this.
Shay Neymar:Right?
Matt Boyle:Absolutely. Yeah. I'll I'll always try and respond to to everybody. If I don't get back to you, it's probably because I've missed it. And also Twitter has this, they attempt to classify your inbox for you very unhelpfully, where they're like, no, this person's spam, so I'm not gonna show you it.
Matt Boyle:And when a lot of time it isn't, so I apologize in advance if I if I miss it.
Shay Neymar:But, yeah, DM's open, as, the youngsters tends to say. And thanks a lot for coming on the show.
Matt Boyle:It's a pleasure. I hope to come back soon and tell you how successful I was about driving, AI adoption in Go.
Shay Neymar:We'll see you next year. Actually, we the survey, just, came out this week. So, we'll know what's the adoption now, and then we'll we'll be able to compare it, you know, exactly in one year.
Matt Boyle:And I'll take full credit for any uptick.
Shay Neymar:But not if not for any downticks.
Matt Boyle:No. No. No. That wasn't me.
Shay Neymar:Yeah. For sure. Alright. Thanks a lot, man.
Matt Boyle:No worries. Thank you.
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